Ep. 35 | Dave Phillips on Coaching Jon Rahm, Co-Founding the Titleist Performance Institute (TPI), and Creating Coffee for Wellness with Phil Mickelson

Dave Phillips (@tpidave) joins us on this episode.

Dave is the Co-Founder of the Titleist Performance Institute (TPI) and one of the most influential people in golf performance. Dave has been coaching Jon Rahm since he was 17 years old and is rated one of the Top 100 Teachers in the country by Golf Magazine.

In this episode, we learn more about his process in coaching Jon Rahm; how TPI became the world’s leader in golf player development; his advice to young coaches; and starting Coffee for Wellness with Phil Mickelson.

Follow us on Instagram: @urbangolfperformance
Follow Mac: @mactoddlife
Follow Leo: @leo_ugp
Website: urbangolfperformance.com

Follow us on Instagram: @urbangolfperformance
Follow Mac: @mactoddlife
Follow Leo: @leo_ugp
Website: urbangolfperformance.com

Transcript

Mac 0:17

Welcome to the urban core podcast. Mack Todd here, I'm here with Leo Rooney. We had a real special guest today.

Leo 0:23

How's it going everyone. Yeah. Dave Phillips, maybe not the most well-known golf coach, the worlds. but, man learning about his past and his experiences, is pretty incredible. Obviously we've known him for a while, being the co-founder of TPI and being in charge of kind of the golf coaching side of TPI. For a long time and incredible guy, super genuine and humble about his past. Not a lot of people know that he coaches John Rahm has been coaching him since he was 17. he's just very humble. And, and one of those guys that is still so, so passionate about golf performance. So it's always incredible to talk to Dave.

Mac 1:08

Yeah, I kinda, I like, I, like, I called him the Erik Spoelstra of the golf industry. He started as the video guy for David led better. and so, you know, just watching players at the highest level, and being just there for two years, doing his video work in his, in his mid twenties, after he got done playing professional golf and just, you know, would do all the video recordings for them and editing and kind of watch them diagnose the players and then, and then started coaching alongside him. and so he's got just such great experience and as he's gone through it and hearing his story. how he ends up with Greg Rose, the TPI, and they're, they, you know, they build this, this amazing foundation for education, for our, for our industry, getting together golf instructors and trainers and physical therapists and giving them an education platform, that really helps communication across working through players and in a team-oriented environment. So it's been. He has been a huge inspiration for me. I know he didn't trace him for the both of us and for UDP, and, just incredible to hear about his life as well and how he's lived in over 20 countries. And. Again, you know, coach coaching the best players in the world and having all these experiences and, and growing up in Africa and, you know, starting to drink coffee at the age of six and, how that all led to coffee company with Phil Nicholson, who was one of his best friends now, you know, coffee for wellness. So, I mean, there's just so much to unpack here and lots to learn from, and David's like a really good person too. So, Just talking to him about his philosophy on life and on, you know, how being a good person, really elevates performance.

Leo 2:38

Yeah. And you know, people talk about Bryce and changing the game. I think, Dave is one of those few guys that, have truly changed the game. I mean, I don't think that golf fitness would be where it's at now, if it weren't for TPI. So TPI has truly changed the game in a lot of ways. all the top players in the world at any given point in the last, you know, since, 2008, nine, 10 have gone through TBI. And so It was truly a game changer for the, for the game of golf and, We really enjoyed talking to him, just know that in this recording, Dave sound was cutting out just a little bit, so be patient with it. it was such a, you know, great episode with so many great nuggets of information from Dave that it's definitely worth, going through it. it's just cutting out here and there. So, thank you for your patience.

Mac 3:28

Take care, everyone. Have a great day. Enjoy the urban golf podcast with Dave Phillips.

Leo 3:41

Thank you so much for joining us. We're really excited to talk to you. And I thought we'll start kind of in the presence. I was lucky enough to spend some time with you recently down at TP, and it was amazing to hear your story and your background. And I thought we will start kind of where you're at now, and then we can go backwards. So, when we spoke, we talked a lot about. Well, you do with John Rahm and I thought we'll just jump into it because I thought it was so great to meet you and talk to you. And actually, like, I, you know, realize that you guys are just sticking to your guns, which I love, you know, how TPI started and looking at the body. And, you know, you're so passionate. And when you talk about this and you mentioned that you're assessing John Rahm every week, pretty much. yeah. Can you talk a little bit about that and then, and then we'll go backwards.

Dave 4:35

Yeah. So, you know, I mean, obviously I've been working with John since he was 17 years old. And when he came over from Spain, he, um, he was still an amazing player. You know, he'd got a scholarship to go to Arizona. I didn't speak great English, through a relationship we had with the Spanish golf Federation. We took care of a lot of Spanish kids that came over to America and we still do today. And he was one of those diamonds in the rough that, you know, you watch him hit a ball and you're like, hold on a second. That sounds a little bit different. The strike is different. And what we did is I started looking at him more of, he had this short golf swing bowed wrist. As you guys see on TV, I was delivered to him really by his first instructor from Spain and his dad and his dad said, Hey, listen, I think if you shorten your back swing, You'll be more consistent cause you already have speed. He was a big kid for Spain. You know, a lot of Spanish kids are six foot three and big builds, which he was a pretty big bill. And you know, I, I watched him hit some balls and it was very impressive, but he had one shot and then I was like, let me assess you and see how you move. And he didn't move very well. He was typical of a lot of kids that are 17 where you think they're going to move good. And then you take them through some tests and you realize that. No, they're in the middle of a growth spurt, their body's changing. They don't have access to the best equipment, this, that, and the other. And he was tight in a lot of areas stiff. He didn't move very well. And he was pretty one dimensional with the strike. I thought about it. And I'm like, you know, if we could just get his body moving better, I think we could get him more shots. Allow him to do more things, open up a little better through impact, not quite have as much lead wrist lag through impact. So we started screening and I built a program around with a team of guys in Arizona that he was working with in college. I spent a Tatum who you might know of with win the day. Who's a great fitness trainer and Jenny Yuan, who's a medical expert. And I said, this kid needs some mobility work and we need to get his body moving better. And if we do, I think the swing will take care of itself and we shouldn't have to do much. And that was really the plan put in place and we just let him go. And we just started and he was dedicated and. you know, start working on getting fitter and get moving better. And it just allowed me to suggest some other things to try and they worked and that, you know, went right through his college to Korea, to where we are today, where he's, you know, currently the number two ranked player in the world and, you know, the sky's the limit for him. And a lot of it has been based around when he got to the tour. We didn't change anything. What we did is we said, let's check your movement every Monday. And based on that, the way you move we'll plan the schedule for the week. So that will determine whether I need to shut you down and you need more rest. Whether you can go in the gym and do a light warm or workout, whether you can do a it'd be workout or whether you can, you know, Pit balls for a couple hours and rest or whatever. So that's what we still do today. We don't mess with his golf swing. My contention is is that if the body is moving optimally, he already knows what to do with the golf club. He doesn't need me to tell him how to hit a draw or a fade. He needs me to guide him and give him just enough information. But he can figure out on his own so that he owns it. And I think that's the secret to really elite level coaching is once you go in with the mindset that you're going to change your golf swing. You're you're going down a slippery slope because they got there because they already had a great golf swing. So I'm just trying to make sure his body is functioning week in, week out so he can do what he wants to do. That's

Leo 8:14

that's profound because you speak like a physio slash trainer, right? You've got to remember you're his golf coach.

Dave 8:21

Yeah. Well, you, you got to remember is that, you know, I kind of created this with obviously dr. Greg Rose. I mean, I've been around movement and great trainers and great therapists now for 30 years, you know? And when I look at who I've been exposed to. I've had an education, the many young physical therapists and fitness trainers probably don't have yet. And not that I'm going to put my hands on somebody and mobilize them or prescribe exercise programs. Cause there's people that are better at doing that than me. Like a lot of your staff. But I certainly know, based on the way somebody's swinging a golf club, what might be Mo what might need fixing. Or from a body swing perspective, which is what TPI was built on. Right.

Leo 9:08

So then from a golf coaching perspective, have you worked on, you know, of course management strategy, you know, short game, how has there been any kind of traditional golf instruction as well? Or,

Dave 9:21

yeah, obviously there is. I mean, you know, on the PGA tour today, coaches have access to a very, specific stat base. So the, you know, you look at. Those little camera that radars out there on the PGA tour and they check your yardage as well. That's just a very small part of it. Each player has a login that gets a behind the scenes look at all their stats. So even though you can go on PJ talk.com and look at their stats, I can dig way deeper than you can. If I have their login or I go in with them. So I can really see, you know, how much work we need to put in, in a certain area. In John's case, we needed a little better distance control wedges at the beginning of this last year. And that's something we put to test. If you look at him on tour, since he's been out there, he hasn't been outside of top five and total driving his accuracy and T is phenomenal, his distance. So why would I need to look at that? I don't really look at it if it's off a little bit. I usually just go to my basics, which are. Are you loading the right hip? Are you moving properly? And you know, I, I helped guide him. And you know, I think one of the things that you learn as a coach and I've been doing this a long time is you learn when to say something and when to shut up. And I think that's very important for young coaches is when you learn a body of work and you start developing more information, whether it be. Track man, or for some pressure or 3d or the human body, you have to be very careful because you're dealing with someone that's going out there every day and has to perform. And you need to make sure you say the right thing at the right time. Otherwise you can actually stagnate their ability to get better. And I've seen that a lot.

Leo 11:05

So do you use a similar approach to every player that you work with or is John rom kind of unique in that way?

Dave 11:11

No. I mean, I, I do use a similar approach. I always come from the body aspect first. So usually, you know, whether it's dealing with a young player, that's trying to get to the next level, you know, I see, you know, the biggest fault I see today in that high school slash wants to be a college player, wants to be a tour player is looking at them. The very best in the world know who they are. They're not trying to be Rory McIlroy or tiger woods and not trying to be somebody else. I saw that in Jordan Speith when he was very young Jordan. I remember him being at TPI when he was 17, getting ready for the foot, joy, junior invitation or whatever, and asking him who his favorite player was. And he said, very bluntly. I don't really have a favorite player there's guys. I like, but I'm just trying to be better at being me. And that hit me very hard in the reason why. Is that right? He knew who he was. And I think, you know, if young people are listening, they need to develop their own body of work and be really focused on that. And it's fine to have idols and it's fine to respect other players. To me, it's ridiculous to try and get a bowed wrist at the top. Like a Brooks kept Gara John rom, or a Dustin Johnson. That's crazy. those guys fall into that usually because of some kind of physical ability or because of a face position and then a body rotation that matches it. So you have to look at the big picture and that's where coaching comes in. I look at every player as a clean slate. I have a model of a golf swing that I like. But I mold it for that person and I, I want them to own it. And usually they're bringing with them something that I can help them improve. And it's up to me to give them just enough information for them to improve it so that they own it. And I think that's the difference between teaching and coaching, right? So there are teachers that spend 95% of their time on the lesson, tee giving lessons. And there are coaches that understand what they're good at and what they're not. And understand that building a team around somebody like you guys have done an urban golf where you have your medical and your fitness and your golf and your club fitting and everything else and your mental. That is really in the best interest to have a play up because now you're surrounding them with people that can help them achieve their common goal. And that's what, that's what I do.

Mac 13:35

Sounds like Dave, like it's, it's so much, you know, so much of what you do as a coach is, is psychology. Like knowing your place in the conversation, knowing where they're at, knowing what, you know, again, like what you said about Jordan Speith I don't have a favorite player and seeing kind of how that affects them as a player. It just, you know, how much is psychology? Cause we talk about the body swing connection. how much is psychology, just a big factor of what you do. Do you, do you loop people in for that as well? Is that something that you have to be versed

Dave 14:02

in, into. Yeah. So that's the elite level of coaching, right? I think as you become a coach, not a teacher, you become part psychologist. I mean, if I was going to tournament like Zoho or the masters, and you think I'm coaching the player, I mean, teaching a skill. That to me is the wrong time to do it. What you're really doing is you are part psychologist and that you're trying to assemble the pieces in their brain so that they can just let it happen. So I think my big thing is practice has to be defined. It has to be specific and it has to be hard so that when you go to play doing just that you're playing the game of golf. And what I see too much is people working okay. On the driving range, but not creating the same competition strategies on the driving range. So when they go to the golf course, they're thinking about what they did on the driving range. They're not playing golf and that's a big difference that we need to clear up in the sport. in terms of the psychology world. I love. There's lots of guys, dr. Bret McCabe, who you guys might've have on is awesome. You know, Bob Rotella, who I kind of was around a lot for a while was awesome. And the way they could assemble forts and get an a player's head and let them do what they know how to do is, but along the road, I discovered that, everybody has a different way of thinking through things and not all psychologists resonate with every player. So there's lots of them. So at TPI, we never really built that side of it. Although now we're in the midst of a very strong and I, I talked to you a little bit about this was Leonard in, in the, the formula one world, you know, I'm studying formula one and I'm studying some other things from the U S military and what the snipers do and what it is, is trying to come up with a diagnostic test to figure out. How do you think who you are and then taking that and going all right. Knowing, know how, who you are. I'm not going to try and change that. I'm going to try and build a body of practice so that you can incorporate who you are into how you play.

Leo 16:13

Um, I think it's, I mean, I just, it's so interesting, right? Like, because you have a 17 year old that eventually becomes. the best player in the world, and you didn't change the swing. I mean, and you didn't do anything significant. It's just so interesting because, the whole conversation from in front of many, many years has been around technique and golf has become very technical, the technology aspect of it. I think it's just so interesting to talk about this almost on a philosophical level is, you know, What are we doing? You know, are we, are we making it way too complicated? Or should we just have players play golf, make sure that they practice right. And make sure that their body is moving well. I asked this question to Chris Como, like. You know, if you have a thousand golfers, and you, you can only have a cookie cutter program. You can't say it depends. Do you have two or three things that you feel like are universal to golf performance? Like, Where it doesn't matter. And you can't say it depends. Do you have two or three kind of principles that you go after? Maybe the, the, you know, the body's your first principle?

Dave 17:23

Well, yeah, I mean, I, I believe that, you know, I mean, I know because looking at 3d information, that power starts from the ground up. So to me, loading the ground and how you use your legs is instrumental. It isn't any throwing sport in any rotary sport. The minute you lift your feet off the ground and try and turn or swing a golf club. You have no power. So to me, the way your feet, load into the ground, the way you load your legs, we talk about a lot about creating a big shoulder turn in golf. It means nothing. If you don't load your legs correctly. So I think there's a lot of fake turns in golf. There's a lot of people that look like they're turning, but they're not really pressuring the ground. So to me, that's why. And now junior. In developing that explosive power from the ground, you know, vertical jumping, jumping, and spinning rotary. How do you push to get, and you can take that. And even as we get older, there's no reason why you should lose speed. As you get older. You might modify your setup. You know, it's amazing to me, as people get into their 55, 60, 70 year old, we don't modify the way they set up to the golf ball. If we narrow their base of support, if we close their stance, fan their feet. We can take care of those tight hips and those glutes that are firing. We can make them turn and coil against the ground. Anybody can do that, but we just don't. So, you know, that's on us as coaches and I think coaching has gone down this path of, you know, I look back the guys that. Had a huge impact on me. When I look at Bob Toski and going for lessons with him who was nicknamed the mighty mouse, you know, he hit the ball further than anybody in the fifties, he weighed 135 pounds soaking wet. And I remember the first lesson I took from him. He said, there's only two things that you need to know about in golf. He said, you need to take care of your feet on your shoes. So you know how to use the ground and you need to make sure you grip the club correctly. Cause that's the only thing hanging onto the club. And that controls the club face that resonated with me way back then. And as simple as that, like a book Charmin. You might as a young teacher or someone in the tech world go, well, he just doesn't know, believe me. He knows. He's seen so many more swings than you. That when he says, move your nose in front of the ball. It, it does everything. It moves your load point. It gets you rotating. It does, it has all that, these other effects. Right. And you could only get that by being in the trenches for as long as somebody like Butch, you can't learn that from a book or from a video camera or from force and pressure or any of these things to me, ground is essential. How you'd use the ground. physicality wise. Yeah, I look at that and I'm going, is that important? It's important for me, the coach, not necessarily students. So the reason we do a physical screen is for me, it's not for you. It's so that I know what you do so that the information I delivered to you, you can do. What's what's the point in me going, okay, you need to load into your right hip. If you have no internal hip rotation, right. I would be better off moving your foot and loading your knees or using your legs or squatting or doing something weird. So it's okay to look weird. Look at Matt Wolfe. Look at Jim Furich. I mean, jeopardy York's the fourth leading time money winner at$67 million and nobody's ever copied his swing. And now Matt Wolf comes out and I'm like, well, did you see Jim Furich? Cause he looks kinda like that in many ways. Right? So, so there's all these. Now, if there's one other thing to me it's impact, I don't think as golf instructors, we teach the difference between setup and impact. The only thing I do with beginning golfers is I show them in front of a mirror where impact is. And then I moved their body to where I mean, we're set up is then I move their body to where set up impact. And I just teach them that and I go her set up. Here's where you need to be when you hit the golf ball. And then I make a, make a small swing and I go, go to impact once they know where impact is, they can go there or I can see if they can go there. So part of the reason why people top the ball hit the ball fat don't create compression. Is we as golfers never taught them impact. We just assume they know that it is well, if you asked a beginning golfer or a high handicap golfer, show me set up. Now show me impact. They'll show you the same thing. Now looking like a deer in the headlights, because they'll go. Well, I'm already here on. I like, no, you're enough. And we all know that the best players with an, I mean, look at Phil Mickelson at impact. I mean, the shaft is leaning so far forward. The weight's on the lead side, he's opened up his hips. You know, he compresses the golf ball. I mean, his divot happens like four inches after he's hit the golf ball.

Leo 22:07

And it's a great place because when you stop, you know, the video at impact. With any amateur golfer, it will, it's hard to see the difference between setup and impact. And that's such a, something that we talk about so much is like, you see there's, your hips are at zero degrees. That impact, you know, they're not, they're not open at all. And that's, I would say, I mean, 90% of people taking up the game and there may be even down to a 10 handicap it's like that.

Dave 22:36

That's right. So, so therefore then it's up to me to go. Okay. What other things can I. Bring into the equation that take them to impact that reinforces what a good impact position. Right? That's exercise equipment, medicine, ball throws. Yeah. And you take a medicine ball. It's got some mass to it in some way. If I asked you to throw it over there and you're not going to stop your body and let it go. Cause it's so heavy. After a while, you're going to feel fatigue. You're going to start to use your legs. You're going to start to use your body and you're going to start to develop this room. So there's lots of tricks to doing that. Whether it be in the gym. And, and, you know, we need to develop simple ways for people to do it and not get them so confused. And I think the problem with this game is they grab hold of that golf club, which has a face on it. And all of a sudden, they're trying to move this on a perfect plane, but what we haven't done is address a simple little easy button for them to hit. And to me, it's impact show them how to get there. And then let them figure it out and then give them feedback on whether they're getting there or not

Mac 23:38

for like a younger, a younger coach. Like you talk about, you know, experience and being able to make these micro adjustments through being in the trenches. W you know, for younger coaches, is there just a lot of exploration, a lot of trial and error that they need to go through. Well, how would you describe where someone's coming into coaching? And there might be a younger, newer coach. And they love coaching people, you know, even from when they were little kids and they find themselves as a coach, how much is it where there's an, almost a natural ability to be empathetic and coach and how much that can kind of override some, a lack of experience.

Dave 24:07

Well, I, I, I agree. I mean, you know, really all people really care about is they want to be around somebody that cares about them. Right? You gotta, you gotta, you gotta, you gotta take it on like, so it's not just a lesson. You're not just coming to me for a lesson. You are now vesting in what I do. And it's up to me to make you enjoy it, develop the love for the game and so on. You don't need to have to be an expert coach to do that. You can be a kid right out of college in a lot of cases. It's that young kid that's energetic. That's positive. That's actually what a lot of beginning people want to be around. They don't want to be around some old high that's crotchety and you got to do it this way. And so on, or some guy kind of in the middle, that's got forcing pressure in 3d and looking at track, Matt bumbles and all of this type stuff. And it's just confusing the issue. Right. And they may not want to take a physical assessment screen either. I mean, there's a lot of people that are like, why am I doing this? I just want to hit the golf ball better. But you know, my whole thing with the physical screen is remember that's for me, it's not you. So. I'm just going to take you through a quick screen, takes about five minutes. I just want to see how you move. So I know how to teach you. And no one says no, they're like, Oh crap. So just follow along with me, do a few quick tests, you know, but I think those young players. We need to make it fun. You know, golf needs to be something that it's booming right now. It's exploding because of this COVID world we live in and we need as a, as an organization, the PGA of America, we need to break down these barriers, get more people out to the golf course. We need to simplify it to me. you go to Europe, they simplify it, right? There's there's one set of tees. Or two sets of tees. There's the front T's on. There's the back here. We got eight sets of tees. It slows the game down. People don't know where to tee up from, you know, to get beginning golfers into it. What we should be doing with technology is staying on the driving range. There should be some kind of radar hit, five drivers taken. Yeah. You know, we can use apps and turn around and go, okay, you should tee it up from 200 yards from the green, right in the middle of the fairway, just peg a tee in the ground. That's where you tee it up from. We have the technology to do that, but it would make it fun. There's nothing more miserable there. Golf balls into the water because they can't carry it over that. That Creek, you know,

Mac 26:28

do you still find Dave that, on that note of like the fitness side? Yeah. We can hear you pretty good. it was a little bit breakup, but do you still find, I mean, after certifying, you know, tens of thousands of people, do you still, instructors and, and physical therapist and, and everything in between, do you, do you still find that pushback from the golf instruction world of, of the body swing connection and actually having golf instructors say that. And you need to learn more than just technique here. You need to learn about the mind about the body, about equipment and understand more than just how to move the club around with your wrist and wrist angles.

Dave 27:01

Well, you know, listen, there's always going to be people that have their way of doing things. You know? I mean, most people that criticized TPI they're either uneducated. They haven't been to a seminar or they're threatened by what we do. Right. So they're re they're firing out. So I'm, I'm, I'm not a judgmental guy. I'm a curious guy. So the way I look at things is if somebody's saying something different, I want to know why, if it, if it doesn't, if it clashes against my belief, I don't immediately put up the fence and go, this is ridiculous. I'm like, well, hold on a second. There's a reason they believe in that. So I need to learn more. I need to. Well, I think most PGA members today recognize AI and what it's done. I mean, we have 27,000 TPI certified guys in 64 countries around the world and we educated 10 different languages. I think those experts have taken this body of work themselves and they do with it what they will, and we give them some guidance. So that has helped hundreds of thousands of golfers live longer, play better and enjoy the game longer. And you can see today, more than any, I mean, look at what's going on in the speed world. When you look at Bryce and you look at how far these guys are hitting it, that's not where the equipment per se, right? That's because he's changed his physicality. And made himself perform faster and move quicker. Anybody can do that at any age. So, you know, there's no regulations on that. They can't come out and go and you don't play golf if you're a certain weight. And if you can only lift X, right. It's not going to happen.

Mac 28:31

So, Dave, let's talk about, let's talk about TPI then. Let's let's on that note to you. So tell us about how it all started and sort of how you, you know, how you got involved and, and, and where you guys are today.

Dave 28:42

So, you know, it, it started very simply, I mean, I, I've always been a curious golf instructor, you know, I, I was lucky enough to back when I got in the business late eighties. I was an assistant pro at a club in New Jersey, just trying to make it like a lot of younger system pros. I was trying to play. cause we all get in this business because we think we're going to be the next great player. Right? And then you start to find your way, but you love the sport and you want to stay connected to it. I realized that teaching was something I was good at and that I had, uh, I was curious about trying to help people. That was my nature. And so I started learning and I went to a great instructor by the name of David Glenn's. Who was a very good player in the North Jersey section, still an amazing instructor and mentor of mine. And he worked with Jim McClain. So I got to see Jim McClain teach as well. So I, I saw with that body of work and then I went with a member of my next club. I'd built the first swing analysis program for golf back in 1990, called the neat system. It's the first time you could actually use a computer to split the screen and draw lines on the screen. And, David led better sword at the golf show. And asked me if I would come work for him while I was young. And I jumped at the chance, you know, I grew up in Africa, similar area that David did, we hit it off immediately. And a lot of the players he taught, I knew, and I even played against in junior golf. And so I get to go to Lake Nona, Florida with at the time, the number one coach he's teaching Nick Falbo, Ernie ELs, Nick price, Dennis Watson, David Frost. These were the best players in the early nineties. And I was there and I was his video guy wasn't even his coach. So I took a step back to take a step forward. I started following David around with the video camera and loading the swings of these great players onto this computer system. And I would sit there analyzing, or in the room, listening to David, give lessons to these guys. And I got a crash course in dealing with elite level players very quickly and all the synergies around them, what they were thinking. And then every night I'd go out and try whatever David told those guys to do. And, I just, you know, I hit it. You

Leo 30:44

were still in their early twenties.

Dave 30:48

and then as I meandered along and golf instruction, you know, I worked for him for about four years and then I left and I, I studied other teachers. I went to Bob Tuskegee, I went to macro Grady. I went to,

Mac 30:58

so you were as video guy for four years, four years. You were, you, you did that. You followed him around.

Dave 31:03

Well, no. I was a video guy for him for two years, and then I became an instructor and I ran a lot of his corporate business. We developed a corporate aspect and even back then, There was a place I'd like known, that was run. They had a tennis area. There was a guy called Pat at your Barre and he trained Jim Korea and a bunch of tennis players. Well, I used to go over there with David and work out. They had a big gym and we started talking to him about golf performance and developing something on the fitness side as well. Right. That was way back then. And, you know, found though was into working out there, there guy, like every 10 years, Norman did it dairy player. There was a variety of different guys that got into the fitness space. So I took that with me. And then as I moved on, I started studying other coaches and I went to every, if I couldn't watch a guy teach, I would save up my money and I'd buy a lesson for him and I'd have them teach me. And I went to Craig Shanklin. I went to Bob Toski and they were amazing people. And I learned a tremendous amount. And I ended up in Baltimore, Maryland at an amazing facility called caves Valley in Baltimore. And they had just opened and, I convinced them to build this teaching center. And at the time it was really the first time anybody had spent the kind of money. I mean, now they're everywhere, but we had a, a four Bay gym. Putting studio. This was back in 1998, 1999. and I, I was teaching Tom Chi and I was doing some work with how Sutton. Then I got some notoriety and I got instantly nominated as a top 100 teacher in America based on what I was doing in this facility. I built, I think I was actually shocked that I got the nomination. I was 32 years old. And at the time I was the number one, I was actually the youngest of a top 100 teacher in America. And they wanted to do an article with me and a gentleman who was forgotten his name now, but he was 88 years old. He was a top 100. They wanted the oldest and the youngest to do this altogether. his name will come to me in a minute. But, but anyway, so when I got this. I was actually shocked. It put me in my place because I was like, I'm not this good yet. Right. There's guys that aren't on this list that are my mentors. So I don't know. Oh, I got nominated by my peers to be on this list, but I did. And it forced me to take a deep dive into my own golf instruction. Look at my database of students and figure out are they really getting better? Am I worthy of this? So that title in a way made me work even harder. And I remember falling into this trap. Like I saw it, they would let betters and these other instructors where some of my students would get better and some of them would get worse. And that bothered me. I saw it down at David's cause he had a certain method and it wasn't because of, he was a bad coach. It was, you know, we always thought, are they just not talented enough? Or they just don't get it, but they would try and try and try it. And that I saw that pattern no matter where I went, you know, we as instructors, you're going to get guys that get better and you're going to get guys that don't and sometimes guys get worse and they leave you and they go find another instructor. And you still see that today. And then. It was raining. I was in Washington, DC. I actually, it was in Baltimore and I was reading the Washington post and there was an article about the sky, dr. Greg Rose. And he was a chiropractor. and he had opened the first golf performance center where they were looking at physical assessment, movement screening and 3d. And I was like, what is this? Like, what is even physical assessment? So I called him and he said, come on down and I'll show you what we do. And I went down there and with him, He said, bring a player. I remember meeting him and land skill. Was there, do you guys know very well?

Mac 34:52

This is all in Maryland. You guys are just happened chance in the same area of the country or the United States at the same time.

Dave 34:58

Yeah. She's not going to open the Washington post and see it as art. and I I'm inquisitive. Remember, I'm curious. So I call immediately. I'm not going to wait. I'm like touch the number. Let's cool. And he picks up the phone. He goes, yeah, it's raining. Or that guy, no, that's why I'm pulling it. And he said, come on down here. Why don't you jump in the car? No you won't. We do. So I had a student that was coming for a lesson we couldn't teach. So I'm like, let's go, come with me. And this guy did, we went down there and we see Greg and he goes, I'll tell you what, let me just show you what I do. And then we can talk about it. So I'm going to take him through this movement screen. And right in front of me, took him through this physical assessment screen and he's writing down this piece of paper and it turns around and he goes, that's what they're going to do in their golf swing. And if you try and do anything else, you're going to struggle. And I looked at that piece of paper and everything I was dealing with with the student was right there. And he had never seen him swing a golf club. So that blew my mind immediately. I was like, okay, what is this smoke and mirrors, are you sure you two don't know each other? And he's like, no, this is here's the deal. He can move this way. And I know off about mechanics in the golf swing that if you try and do anything else, he's going to struggle. And that's when that kind of bright light went on head. And I realized that this was what was missing in the industry. We as golf instructors were never thought taught during the PGA, all of our apprenticeships, anything about the human body. Anything about movement assessment based on how you hold a golf club, here's what needs to happen. They turn, they separate whatever, but no one had ever taught us that, Hey, you should know how this moves. How are you going to get somebody to turn more? If they can't right now, a lot of golf pros today, figure it out because they just teach around physical limitations without knowing, and they have methods to do that. But now I had a tool that I could latch on to. So I brought the CEO of Titlest there while you line, who was awesome at the time. And he was on the PGA tour. And I, I coached him when he was a junior 11 years old and he was winning everything up in the Northeast. And we used him kind of as a test on me, we looked at his body and found some limitations and we. Got him on some exercise programs and he got better and better and better, and ended up going to Oklahoma state winning the U S Aminah. So we were able to build a golfer from literally a junior all the way to the elite and prove that this, this could work. And so while he gave us the opportunity to move to Southern California, build the title's performance Institute, we have a 33 acre facility in Oceanside. And it's, it was really the, truly, the first kind of Olympic training center, the golf, where I convinced Greg to give up his practice, move with me and build this, this thing. And it's become obviously a lot more than that. And what we're most proud of is. People like you guys that have done taking the information and taking it to another level, but also it's taking somebody from scratch and turning them into a tour player. It's one thing to take a tour player and make them better because they've already got the skill. It's a whole nother thing that takes somebody that doesn't have any skill and build them and make it talk.

Mac 38:03

That's an amazing story. I just think about, so like 99, 2000, you guys were working together there. I actually went to IMG Academy that was in Bradington. With lead better. And Gary Gilchrist 2000. So it was like,

Dave 38:15

yeah. So I was, I left led in 95, 96, but I remember that because it was in its infancy. Academy over there and Gary Arman, um, uh, Gary, when, you know, he was there when I was there, Brian mod was there, there was a bunch of other great instructors that were there and Mitchell Spearman, Patty McCowen. And then there was Robert Baker who was a close friend of mine and, and there were really good teachers there. They were just great people and, all of them have had yeah. Impact on my career and what I've been able to do with TPI.

Mac 38:49

What was the big inspiration, because you think about those kinds of multiple tracks, like, you know, going down an Academy and building an elite Academy, that's there to train and develop players and, you know, get these junior junior athletes essentially, and then get them to go to college. And, and I, you know, ideally go out there and play on tour. and then, and then, you know, for you to go into education and into educating and certifying and instructors and trainers and having an impact that way, what was the impetus and kind of the choice there.

Dave 39:16

So two things, really one when we first got built TBI day one, this is going to blow you away. They had the, uh, the PGA tour event here at LaCosta. It used to be called the match play. And while you line had arranged for 30 of the best players in the world to be at TPI without us knowing, and they were, we walked in, literally Greg and I showed up without 3d equipment and everything into this warehouse. And literally there was, they just love Phil Mickelson, Fred couples, Jose, Mario lovable. All these great players from the tournament were asked to come in and get evaluated. And in a two day span, Greg and I took all these players through our evaluation and 3d. So instantly. We literally got 30 of the top 50 players in the world and we got data. So right away we knew. What was going on, we knew what was real and what was not. And we were able to take that to a whole nother, we started out coaching, you know, executives, and we had these fantasy camps. We were sold out eight months in advance. Guys were flying in from all over the country. And Greg and I were working our tails off building, you know, doing what we were doing with torpedoes. And we realized that to really be build a business. And this is my business hat. You can't just have a facility. I mean, one facility, they're going to want you all the time. And there's only so many hours in the day. This is what happens with a lot of coaches. They get a notoriety, they get, they do really well and they get a lot, a lot, a lot of lessons, but how can they build a business? That's scalable because a one man show is not scalable and one facility is not scalable. You know, you're going to run out. So to us, it was let's create an education platform and educate medical professionals, fitness professionals, and golf professionals. So now was a triple the Al space. We have these golf professionals. There's 28,000 of them. We have fitness. We didn't even know how many of those were. And then we have medical, there's hundreds of thousands of them worldwide. So all of a sudden we built this body of education, where we could certify medical experts, fitness professionals, and golf professionals, and give them a kind of a metal Ivana where they had the skills now to talk to each other, because what we found was a lot of medical pros. They were at another level of movement, you know, they were talking to golf pros without relating to why, and they didn't know enough about the golf swing, same with fitness professionals. We're all, we're all going to go in the gym and we're going to do this, and this is going to get you strong. But if you don't know what happens in a golf swing, you could actually hurt somebody as you guys know. So. That was really the impetus behind the education platforms,

Mac 42:07

but that's so interesting too. Cause I feel like as we're, you know, building the business, I felt, it felt like to studying TPI and going there as a young professional, I sort of recognize that story, just being there and seeing you guys and seeing the kind of dedication and all this talent. I mean, there's a, the TPI team is a very talented team of individuals. And so just seeing all this talent and then. And, and, and sharing this information with others. And then just thinking to myself, like, what am I going to do with my life and how am I going to have this all tied together? I thought I just can never have it be about me. I have to be the guy behind. That's why I live in Carmel too, since I gotta be behind the guy behind everybody. and never make it cause I could have been a really great young coach. I was very driven. I loved it and I, you know, really enjoyed it, but I said, I need to make it about empowering other people and just use every other skill set. I have to scale locations and scale the operation.

Dave 42:56

That's right. And if you, you know, if you w if I was talking to a young golf, professional, or medical offenders, you know, the, the danger is, is putting your name on the wall, because if it does explode, they're going to want you, right. So you need to come up with a name like you guys do, and you live and breathe it every day, but you've developed an amazing team. And, you know, when Leonard was telling me about. Your infrastructure and how you create your customer service and how you train people. I was blown away because that's really what it's all about is it's really about making people feel like you care. And that's the same thing with any business, you know, to me today. I mean, how many times do you call for customer service and you get on the phone with some robot, right? And now you've got to go through 30 different BB BB beep beep beep. And you never get to the right person to me, I'm ready to ditch that product right away. So as much as those companies think that they're streamlining their operation, they're actually hurting the connectivity that we all as human beings want. So people are to launch you going to make golf pros obsolete with this. Absolutely not. People want this. They want interactivity, you know,

Leo 44:04

a hundred percent. So, I mean, it's such a, it's such an inspiring and motivating story as well. And obviously, you know, you know, urban golf performance, wouldn't really, I'll be here probably in the same way if it weren't for TBI. So I just want to thank you. And, and, and Greg for making it happen, you know, it's pretty amazing. And, you know, looking back at your career, when you talk about, you know, led better and. I mean, is there anybody in on this planet that have seen more, more golf swings than you? I mean, you're thinking about, I guess, more good golf swings than you.

Dave 44:40

you know, this one, I'm sure there are, there's probably guys like, let's see way more than me, but there's probably not that many people that have seen them slowed down like me because. Remember, I built the first swing analysis product that allowed me to slow motion capture and draw a line. I'm probably part of the problem because of what I built. So I think sometimes we look at the bumps, swings slowed down today and 240 frames per second on our iPhone. And I'm like, remember that thing is moving at speed. So, you know, I still today do some crazy stuff, you know, when I'm watching somebody teach or when I teach somebody. I often walk away. I'll tell him I need to go inside and get a drink. And I have this little room, with a two way window and I watch them from behind the window. Don't tell them this, but I watched them from behind nothing crazy. I watch them Vermont. Cause I want to know whether they're actually resonating with the information I gave them. I want to know. Did they lose focus right away and get their phone out or do something else or were they really dedicated at all? And what is that? And, you know, I adopt a totally different approach because I'm at a level now as an instructor, I don't, I choose who I want to work with. I don't choose who wants to people, people go, I want to come take lessons from you. I'm like, okay, great. I go, well, here's, what's going to happen. You can come. And here's what I do, but I'm going to decide whether I want to work with you, not the other way around. And the reason being is because there has to be a connection. And if there isn't a connection, I'm not going to be able to help you or break the barriers you need to get to that next level. And I'm really adamant about that because there's a lot of people that'll just take somebody's cash. I could really charge whatever I want. And I don't like that. I don't, I don't actually charge young players out of the gate. I build a program that's longer if I decide to work with them because I just don't think, first of all, you know, I remember back, you gotta remember. I grew up in a very poor part of Africa. I was, I was, you know, one of those kids that was fortunate enough to be at a golf course. We didn't have a driving range. There wasn't any way to pick up golf balls. You, you basically couldn't buy a golf glove because they weren't any, you couldn't buy golf shoes and you very rarely could buy new golf balls or golf clubs. And at a very young age, I, I loved the game so much, but so many people offered information from the club professional to other members that gave me information of the young player, but I could never have played paid for. And I think we need to pay it back and to. A 12 year old or a 15 year old or a 20 year old. That's not making any money, a thousand dollars an hour or$500 an hour. I won't do it. I just feel it's wrong. And you know, there's going to be a timer. If I get you to where you're going to go, you're going to owe me and I'm going to come knocking, but not right now.

Mac 47:33

I think that's awesome too. And I actually think you don't have to be one of the best instructors in the world. To have that mindset, you know, to be able to look someone in the eye and be like, I mean, I remember, I used to think that when I was first coaching, I would look at people and I'm in my little Bay in this corner of this gym. And they're like, who are you like in this little corner over here, but I'll tell them, I'm like, I'm never going to have this energy I have ever again, like golf has been such a huge, you know, gift in my life and something that I've poured thousands and thousands of hours. I don't think my dad with IMG with all the junior golf stuff and then college golf and all the heartache, it's like thousands of hours of like, Sacrifice and everything that I've put into the game and into, into thinking about it. I'm going to share that essence with you. That's not, I didn't want to look at it like transactional. Like I'm going to show you how to swing a golf club. I'm like, I'm going to share my love. For the game of golf with you. And so in a big way, I always would tell people that I'm like, I'm going to give you my essence in golf and not just teach you, I'm going to really share what I have and in my heart and in my soul with the game. And so therefore, or like this needs to be, I'm really counting the minutes far more than you are, whether or not you're doing good reps, whether or not you're into this. And if you're not, let's not wasting any time. And typically that. You get the right kind of clients that way. And that's, I think that's why we've been able to kind of build that into our business in a way where it's like the right kind of people that want to be

Dave 48:51

there. Well, you, you know, you guys do it right. And that you're, you're in a service business. Right. And, and I look at it. No with the way you train your staff is, is amazing. And to me, that's, that's the essence of any business is that you, you know, people that you have working for you, they care. And if you care enough, then, then therefore those people, it's kind of like this analogy, like, you know, you can go to the best restaurant in town, but if the people are nasty, it doesn't matter how good the food is. You're going to walk away going. Yeah, it was good, but I'm never going away because the way that guy treated and you can go to an average restaurant that has the amazing atmosphere. And the people are beautiful and they're nice and friendly, and you'll tell everybody it's the greatest place on earth. Right? So that to me is that premise behind business. And it's not, we talk about yet you have to make money and you have to build a business and you have to charge what you're worth, but there's a way to do that. And to me, number one is the key. First and creating that safe environment of learning and passion and creativity and curiousness. And that's, that's what I'm all about. And that's what I told you earlier. There's a quote, a guy by the name of Walt Whitman that they named the bridge. After in New York, he has a quote that, you know, and I think most people are judgmental when you should be curious. And to me, there's no time, like right now in this country, in this world, That we need to be that way. Right? Because everything from our media to everything is very judgmental and very negative. And that's, that's a spiral that I don't like, and I don't care who you support. We need to be curious and we need to listen to people for what they have and really deeply take in why they say things that way, why they dress that way, why they do that. And it's the same thing in golf instruction. There's tons of great instructors. I mean, you know, you look at somebody like Gigi, who you guys know, who's not far from your church campus. He's got an unusual way of doing things, but man, he's vibrant and he's amazing on camera. And he does some stuff that you just. You just don't want to stop watching him because he's so good. Right. And I might look at it and go, wow, that seems kind of crazy to me, but part of me is going, but I need more. I want to know more, you know, so that's where I take the judgemental hat on. And I'm curious, I'm curious about George curious, George.

Mac 51:23

So then what. With, with TPI on the concept of the, of the world. There's something there just kind of random thought came in my head. But you look at, like, you guys say, you've certified TPI in like 10 languages. You've seen all over the world. I'm from West Texas. They're like, Oh, you have, uh, you know, your West Texas swing your West Texas ball flight, your West, Texas this. And then I think about like playing with people from all over the world because of golf. Right. And. How do you, do you find in certifying instructors and seeing different kinds of players? Do you see some idiosyncrasies? Like I thought about that if you know, my biggest goal, I always tell people like, they're like, well, when are you going to feel satisfied with growing this business? And I'm like, well, when I see it in Japan, like lab, and I have this dream of like blocking into a UDP in Tokyo and seeing the whole vibe be the same, but the language be in Japanese. And so I, what, what, what idiosyncratic things are like, what are you learning and seeing all these different cultures, like what do you notice some commonalities and also some major differences in terms of how people are experiencing connecting with golf worldwide.

Dave 52:20

Yeah, I mean, I do. And you know, that's, what's so fascinating and moves you so much is that, you know, when Greg and I go to Korea or Japan or China, where there's a total language breakdown, although we have translators most of the time we're doing screen it's monkey, see monkey do follow along with me. Amazing. When you take somebody through a physical assessment screen, they don't speak your language and you just ask them to do something, how they resonate and how they come alive. And, and it's so pertinent today because to me, you know, people are people and they want you to care and they want to learn and laugh. Is there really not a barrier to me. I don't, I don't look at it that way. I I've lived all over the world. I had a very interesting life. I've lived in 27 different countries. I lived all over Africa, the middle East, the far East Asia. You know, I was born in England, raised in Africa. My parents immigrated to Australia. I started playing golf in Papa, new Guinea, the small Island above Australia. And you know, I've seen it all. I've seen extreme poverty. I've seen death. I've seen a lot of nasty things that happen in this world. And, and today, you know, we, we can use golf as a, as a force of good, I mean, think about what it's done in this COVID time. I mean, it's actually exploded because you can go outside and people need to realize that look around you. Right. So, you know, we all get upset when we play golf and hit a bad shot, but just stop for a minute and look where you are, look at where you are. I mean, look at pebble beach. I mean, I stand out there on that goal. Always played great at pebble beach. Any where that there I'm on a golf course. It has an ocean view. I play amazing, and it doesn't matter how bad I've been playing. And the reason is, is I'm so in touch with the environment and the world. Right. And I, everything else is gone. And golf is just something that I just enjoy and that I love to play. Right. And, and so I think TBI has done good that way. I think we can do better and we will always strive to do better. I mean, we're trying to build our education platform. We're trying to help people run their businesses, trying to teach people the right way. But, you know, golf. He's end game. I mean, I'm on the PJ committee for a lot of things, and we're trying to look at ways to grow the game and help people be exposed to the game because on a fitness level, on a wellness level, you know, we need to change society into a. A weld care, not a healthcare society, right. We, we need to take accountability for our own health. And that means making the right choices and putting the right food in our bodies and getting enough sleep. So our body gets rest and builds our immunity and getting outside and walking golf courses and swinging a golf club. I mean, I've been doing these things with whoop and, you know, you can swing a driver for 10 minutes and it's better than jumping on a Peloton bike for 20 minutes in terms of your cardiovascular response and what it does. Yeah. There are so many health benefits to golf and what an amazing sport that we can be outside and play all over the world and play on a different playing field every day or every time we did.

Leo 55:21

Yeah. I mean, that's great. Even just looking at whoop you know, 18 holes, how high the heart rate goes up. I mean, we're talking one 50, one 60. If you're walking, that's why, you know, here in America, it's carts every day, but you know that walking 18 holes, you know, there's studies from Sweden actually showing just how, how it affects longevity. And it's pretty amazing. Golfers live five, six years, longer than the average population. So it's a great point.

Dave 55:50

Well, it's one of my greatest stories in Sweden. I'm giving a lecture of Swedish golf Federation and we're at a golf course and it's, it's partly snowing and there's people out on the golf course. But anyway, I go to the driving range, right. And we're standing there and they're giving us this tour and I see this old guy pulling a pull cart. And he walks up to a box on the back of the range. And I'm like, what is that? Where's that guy going? And it's got this combination lock on it. He hits a couple buttons and it opens up these doors and it has all these bands. And it's got this plan and he stands there and he pulls the bands and he starts doing this warm up and I'm like, look at that. That's the greatest thing I've ever seen. Right. And that was in Sweden, right? It was, it was amazing to see

Mac 56:34

you think about, sorry for these random thoughts pop in my head, but what do you think about, swing style and how that affects like. You know, I think about, I just like, think about Jack Nicholas revert, see, and then everyone's swinging like that in the seventies, eighties, you know, and then you see kind of what Nick Fowler did and then people start copying it and then tiger woods, the way he swings and people want to swing like tiger and finished like tiger. And now, I mean, are we going to see a bunch of people swinging like Bryson DeChambeau and. Getting out there and just Tomahawk and get out there. What's what's the, what's the future swing?

Dave 57:05

Well, you know, the thing is, is I honestly believe that if you, if you look at a lot of those players from knee-high to knee-high through impact, they actually get the club back in a very similar position regardless of how they right, because that's impact alignments and squaring the face at impact. I honestly believe that a lot of those swings. Are inherently built around the way they move. Yeah. So I'm pretty sure just by talking to Jack Nicholas and seeing the injuries he had and did have a lot more than people realize he had a total hip replacement, but you know, he had a little bit of seat posture. It's set up. Now you could say that people copied that. And that's why people swung that way. Or you could say that Nicholas got to that because maybe he built his own swing around the way he moved. So maybe he moved his legs the way he did because his hips were tight. Maybe his thoracic spine, or he couldn't hit pins or touch his toes, which he couldn't by the way, maybe that's why he bent from his thoracic spine, what would move and the way he had seat posture. So inherently, you know, there wasn't video cameras and instruction like we have today where you could micro analyze a golf swing. And a lot of them used to use still graph check cameras. And even those didn't come out until the fifties or sixties. So I remember, you know, We had our world golf fitness summit, and Peter Costas made a great point about the way Bobby Jones swung the club on the way some players back then swung and he goes, have you ever played golf in a three-piece suit? You know? And, and he goes, well, go put one on and try and swing a golf club and see what you would have to move to do that. Right. Because basically, you know, it's a jacket and a jacket and back in the day, that's what they dressed that. To go play golf. So maybe the reason their knees moved in the legs move they way we do were because of the conditions of the environment. So. Well, we see this evolution to your point of swings and you look at, you know, on a Palmer, you know, swing my swing, swing. Your swing was his statement, which I love is that I think people build golf, swings around the way they move and us golf instructors just channel them. But you know, like if Matt will showed up on your driving range and you know, the first time you ever saw him and you go, yeah, have a few drive is funny and you saw that, would you change it? I mean, you know, you, you watch the guy and it goes, I just got 185 mile an hour ball speed flies at 320 yards gets it pretty much dead straight. And you're looking at it going, hold on a second. How the hell is he doing this? Right? So the Bryson does sham bows. Now Bryson is taking everything to the limit. So he is a curious guy, I would say more curious than maybe anybody on tour and he's looking for every else. Of of competitive that he can squeeze out of it. No different than formula one. Right? What is the Mercedes team different while we're getting, making sure our tires are optimally at this temperature and we have this and we do this and we do this. And so they're all trying to do the optimum. Bryson's just taking it faster than probably anybody else.

Leo 1:00:21

But it's so interesting, like this topic, right? Like,

Dave 1:00:25

and to see the speed thing continue. Yeah. Until there's a stop to it. Why wouldn't you, is it ruining the game? No, I don't.

Leo 1:00:32

It's so interesting because when it, you know, if you, if anybody has ever been to a charity golf tournament, you see 144 players tee off on the same hall, you realize that the golf swing is really just a makeup of someone's software, you know, maybe 10% DNA genetic build. And then the rest of it, the path of the club is, is going to be determined by mobility, stability, strength. and, and the body and the joints that make up the body. And so, you know, when you talk about knee height to knee height and, you know, aesthetics of the golf swing as a whole is not necessarily correlated with performance. Right. Right. Like, because every example has a, has a, an argument against it on tour, basically. So, so then what are we talking about? I mean, I would, because if it's just knee height to knee height, basically impact is the only universal thing we can talk about in the gospel.

Dave 1:01:32

Well, to me, I actually think it is. I mean, to me, everybody physically is different, right? I mean, there's some people that have small feet. I know tall, there's some people have big feet. There's somebody will have big hands, big, you know, longer torso longer this longer that we're all have a different DNA. We're all built slightly differently. Nobody is a carbon copy unless you're a twin, you know, that's probably the only situation, but even then mentally, you know, they might have some different things going on as well. So I look at it and I go, the only constant really around golf is impact. It's what happens at the point of contact with that golf. And what do we need that to be? So, you know, we're starting, right? No. Now, because of radar and things like that. I mean, if you want to look at something that's advanced the game more than anything else, which. Everybody neglects to talk about. It's really the fitting of the equipment based on radar. Radar is probably the one thing that USDA and stuff wishes they had couldn't control because that has really helped us define your for you at your speed. Your drivers should launch this and spin it this, and that's how you're going to hit it. The optimum distance. If we didn't have that, it would just be. Oh, I think I got it right. Yeah. We're probably losing 10% there. Now, now guys are so dialed in via equipment, and equipment, you know, everybody's like, Oh, we gotta limit the golf ball. And we got to change the club head and we got to do this. There's already limits on the golf ball as much as what it can do. And there's already limits on coefficient of restitution and the drive ahead of what it can do. It's really all marketing. Yeah. You know what they're using and the metals and so on and so forth. The one thing they have no control of is this and this right? So people don't talk about golf. Oh, it's all between the space in between your head and mental is 90% of the game. That's partly true. If you have a skill level, Let's set the advanced of a PGA tour. It's not true if you don't have a skill level, if you're a beginning golfer. And I just said, I would think happy thoughts. It's 90% between your head. You would still suck.

Leo 1:03:34

It's funny. It's basically, it's basically, you know, getting to know your coaching and everything. It's like, you're, you're really putting the hardware first and yeah, the soft, but, but you saw John rum, his software was amazing. And you knew, and you knew that he got there and because of his software, now you prioritize the hardware and you have pretty much the whole time. It's a very interesting, unique way of looking at it. And it's even credible that the industry doesn't at scale understand or take on the concept that the golf club is attached to the body in the gospel. W, why do you think that is after,

Dave 1:04:20

you know, Mike and Alaska probably made the best statement that I've ever heard. And he was one of the first guys that talked about physicality of golf, and that's the minute you pick up a golf club, the body's involved. So when people go, well, it swings itself. I got no it doesn't. You don't just stand and look at your driver, a guy go over there and hit the ball 300 yards from me. You got to pick it up. And the media you do that the body's involved,

Mac 1:04:42

right? Yeah. They do sell that little thing that you can push a button and it just flicks the ball out there.

Dave 1:04:47

Yeah.

Mac 1:04:49

So like, what are you, what are you thinking about, you know, on this side of the things, you know, certifying professionals and I'm just so interested in, in S in TPI and what it's been able to do, what, where are some of the coolest stories you have in terms of like inspiring these professionals and then seeing, you know, their operations change, their academies change. Whereas where has been some of your highlights in terms of, because it's so raw, such rewarding work. I mean, even though there are only two, three day workshops, but you get to meet these people. You, I mean, I was so impacted by watching Lance get up there and talk really. I mean, I watched him get up there and talk and I was like that. Guy's awesome. Oh my God, golf instruction could be cool. It could be fun. It doesn't have to be so uptight. and, and so I just, you know what, some of the cool stories you have.

Dave 1:05:32

There's there's, there's so many from around the world. I mean, how have you guys, you guys are a cool story, right? I mean, look what you guys have done and what you've built in the short time, and you've built something that is needed. And that is awesome. And yeah. So you took a piece of that. So I would count you in that we use you guys a lot. We tell a lot of people about that story and about how you built urban golf and what you've created, because it's something really special. But when I look at, you know, You know, from fitness professionals that are just coming out of college, starting a business, and, you know, Calvin and Jackie, a gentleman down in Florida whose fitness, and she was a fitness trainer as well. We didn't know anything about golf and, and, you know, we're really struggling trying to put a gym together in Florida and, you know, had a small clientele and didn't really do much. And then really dive deep into TPI. They actually attended, they've attended more level one classes than anybody. I think they'd been a 30. So just because they love to keep coming back and learning and Calvin and Jackie have now taken over one of the largest golf facilities in Southern Florida. They've built a huge community. They're in a community. They run a very successful golf, fitness business, and they've opened multiple in that area. And just seeing what they've done with the information we gave them and then take on and then meet other people from TPI to help them. Medical professionals is just amazing. And I love that when I look at instructors like. No, I think of Mark Blackburn. Who's one of my mentors and, you know, Mark, I mean, Mark just won PGA teacher of the year. There's no bigger thing for me than having somebody who's younger than me that I saw when they. 15 years ago when they were young instructor and then see the hard work that they've put in and taking information and never stopping learning, and going to other seminars, not just TPIs, but coming back and building their body of work around movement and then adding the other pieces to that and really creating. One of the elite golf instruction facilities in Birmingham, Alabama working with multiple tour players and, and, you know, taking players to that next level. And that's Mark Blackbird, a tremendous person. When, when you know, I, I think of going to Asia and going into Korea and Japan and seeing an organization where we have a medical profession over there, Chung Kim who came to us to a TPI class as a medical professional in Korea. Spoke a little bit of English. And then every time we would go back, he would show up and he would ask questions and then he would, he would ask whether he could be our medical guy over there and okay, well you need to get to level three and you need to do this. And he did it. And now he runs a TPI tour performance trailer on the Korean tour. Every PGA tour player on the Korean PGA tour and LPGA goes through TPI weekly. They go through screening weekly and he has now created five, master's programs at universities in Korea to teach golf performance and just built them a massive process. And it's. It's just, there's so many little spots and highlights like that as you go around the world. I think of the me and my golf guys. So you guys know, you know, who you guys are probably seen on TV and I have an incredible channel. Those were two young guys that attended a level one at a football stadium in the rain and snow that Greg and I did for the British PGA and came up to us and said, Hey, we love what you guys do. How do we know more? How do we get involved? And we just starting them and answering their questions and then steaming what they've built, as an online platform. And watching one of their pupils who won two weeks ago in wri, I think it's our ride, the, the British guy that they took from, you know, 15 years old and he actually wears a Mia, my golf logo on his shirt and just won a European tour event. Pretty damn. Yeah. That's

Leo 1:09:43

awesome. Incredible stories. you must be really proud it's and I liked that all your stories has not, you know, there's no, like there was no players in there. So you, it sounds like it's pretty clear that you get more fulfilled by, empowering other professionals and, and, and growing their businesses. That's great.

Mac 1:10:02

it almost, I almost have this nostalgia that comes into my head of like, you know, cause it's just being able to do be gathered like that because mine was in new Orleans. I was like 21 or 22 years old and that was a fun night. but it was, it's just that, you know, and just what I think, talking to you, Dave, understand so much more about TPI now and its impact is even bigger than I thought it was on me, but just that, you know, the culture that you're a very cultured well-rounded sophisticated, gracious, man. And that that's very clear to me. And I just think that that's not necessarily, like why saw golf going, you know, I think with the PGA and like where it was explosive growth, and I always thought of a PGA professional as a young kid, I looked up so much to them. And so just that what you guys brought was I think was perfect timing because it's, it's bringing like, That culture and that well-rounded sophistication and gratitude into an industry that needs it. I think we really need that. I think that's something that's, I mean, training and hiring and managing and training kids that were good golfers in junior golf and then college golf. And then they come into work for us and be selfless teachers and coaches. We really, I mean, what I, what I spend most of my time doing. Is trying to get him to be like Dave Phillips in this way, about being a more gracious well-rounded sophisticated culture tolerant person. And I think that that comes through experience. It comes through, you know, stress testing. It comes through being humbled. And I think it's like, you know, just talking to you, it makes you realize it's more than the body swing connection, more than just being inspired by seeing a young team of professionals up there, teaching about this stuff. But actually, you know, Brought you, you put your DNA into and that's clear. And that really did actually impact me and my organization far more than I thought.

Dave 1:11:46

Well, that's awesome to hear. I appreciate that a lot. I mean, you know, to me, you know, it it's, I I've had, as I said, a very fortunate life to be able to travel around the world and see what I've seen and, and have a global perspective. And, you know, I came to America as an immigrant and, you know, married an American woman out of college and. It's the greatest country in the world. And it needs to look at itself in the mirror and really realize that is that the opportunity exists here to do your work that you want. And there, there is no time for what we have, you know, what's what's happening today. It makes me upset because I see people, you know, you, you have no idea how good you have it over here. When you grow up in Africa and see kids playing with a tire and a stick with a big smile on their face, like it's the greatest toy that they have. Right. And I mean, I know you've had some help from, from different sponsors and I know the guys from Tom's shoes and what they've done in society. I actually saw him on a podcast and I've forgotten his name, sorry, but I saw him on shark tank the other night and, and you know, his story around now, wellness and health and giving back. And that is something that we all need to do. Right. We, we need to, we need to look at ourselves in the mirror and go, life's too short. Why are we rushing so much? Why can't we stop? And, and, and just slow down a little bit, do what we love. But pass it on because the more you pass it on, the more it comes back. And I think you're the founder of Tom shoes has definitely done that. And I commend him highly for that.

Mac 1:13:22

Well, it's been a big, it's been a big inspiration for me. And like I said, I just hearing you talk. It makes me realize like how much of that I have around me in my life and, and, and how blessed I am to have that. And in reality, The more we get into business, the more we get into, you know, raising families and, you know, growing up as men and women, it's like the more you realize you're going to get you'll it'll the well stops. If you don't start growing. Essentially, you know, in a lot of ways, like, you know, if you really want to have an impact and you want to make a bet, you know, make a difference, you have to be invested in the future and not just focused on what's good for you right now. So, so it's, it's crucial and, and, and, and that's what you guys have done. I think it's epi and that's what we're trying to do at UDP is being able to. Foster a future generation of doing this a better way because it takes, it takes time. It's like, we want to be able to say, okay, cool. I went into a TPI seminar. I got I'm TPI certified. Now I'm going to go and change the world. Yeah, you are. But it's going to take you time. It's going to take years of hard work and discipline. And like you said, you were the video guy for two years for lead better. I mean, You were the Erik Spoelstra of the, of the PGA. So it's like, and in so many ways, it's just like being able to get in there and be humble and like, and be present with what you're doing. Like you said, I was like, you were shocked at 32 that you were one of the top 100, you know, in the country. I mean, I see so many young instructors that are like, I'm 32. I'm not on the top a hundred list. And so I see that I see the opposite. And so I, you know, so it's just, it's, it's interesting. you know, just kind of where we are with technology and with phones and, and people seeing quick instant success for young tech entrepreneurs. I think that that's hard to necessarily translate into our industry that does require quite a bit of wisdom.

Dave 1:15:05

Yeah, no, no. I agree with you. I mean, I think we're in a landscape right now where things are moving so fast. There's a lot of obstacles there always are, but if you have a passion for what you do. And you strongly have the right, your heart in the right place. You can get through those there's people that want to help. A lot of us are scared to ask. we, we think it's a step back to ask. I'm not, I've never been scared to ask. If I have a problem with John realm, I've got a short list of five instructors that I'm going to call right away. And I'm not, I would call them in an instant and, and, you know, that's. That's what it should be about, you know, because if you think, you know, everything, that's when, if you're not growing too, you know, and you, you got to keep moving. Yeah. You know, and keep learning and, and it might be something completely different. I mean, we've branched out into baseball and we've got a soccer project and we've got lacrosse and we've got all these other sports going on and other things that we're doing, and it is so much fun to kind of step out, learn something from another coach in a total different environment. I go, hold on a second. How can I bring that back to my environment? Cause I love it.

Leo 1:16:12

Mm

Mac 1:16:12

yeah. Yeah. And that school of thought is what people are really attracted to. And then taking that into other sports. before Leo kind of, I feel like Leo is going to end this pretty soon and then get into some innocent questions. I can sense it. So before that happens, can you tell us a little bit about your coffee venture with Phil Mickelson?

Dave 1:16:29

Yeah. So the coffee for wellness is right here. My shameless plug, you know, the coffee thing was. It's a passion of mine. It's an amazing story. You know, growing up in Kenya, my dad used to, we have an old land Rover. He used to take me out in the Bush every Saturday to watch the animals come to this one watering hole. And there was MSI tribesmen that used to be there. Every morning and he would make us coffee and he would get the coffee beans from up on this mountain and he would roast them and he would make his coffee. And my dad used to give him a couple of shillings, which is the currency there. And he would beaming and he would long for us to come and he would love to have coffee. So at six years old, I started drinking and it was more of a. My dad was like, listen, it's the healthiest thing you can put in your body. Don't let your mother know that I'm giving, but here's the deal. You just keep drinking that coffee son. You know, he was a, kind of a, a tough guy and, Basically, I had a love for it my whole life, and I'm not a, I don't drink 10 cups a day. I literally drink one cup a day. But what it did is it led me on this journey around everywhere. I went to search for coffee and I've been the mountains of Yemen. I've been in Ethiopia. I've been in some really nasty places, searching and hunting for coffee and going on these days. And also, yeah. Just trying to find performance-based additives. So, you know, being in the performance world as a performance coach, you hear about a lot of things from Olympic athletes to golf as, Hey, try this. Have you tried this, you know, protein powders around fitness guys? So the way this was really developed as Phil's been a close friend of mine for 20 years and I've watched his career and, you know, since his first major. And seeing what an amazing person he does behind the scenes and so on and so forth. And you know, when he went down with, sorry, psoriatic arthritis, What has been your diet or, and battled with his weight and he drinks coffee. And I, I said to him, I made him coffee once. And he's like, this is the best coffee I've ever tasted. And I'm like, yeah, I'll tell you why. And I started making them coffee. And then I said, by the way, you know, I could add some things to your copy that actually help you lose some weight and feel better and be more alert. And he was all in and we started this coffee and I started making them. And then. We were at Augusta Nashville a year, a year ago, practicing and getting ready for the tournament. you know, you have to have a member. Then we met a gentleman that knew somebody that was in the coffee business. And we told him that I told the same story at dinner and he's like, I know how to help you make this a company and build a coffee. And you're like, really? And Phil looked at me and he's like, we should do it. We're going to sell a bunch of coffee. Okay. And it, wasn't where I was thinking of going. And a year later we actually launched coffee for wellness a month ago and it's been going amazing. We sold out and literally a day of the six months supply. Wow. What it is is it's. Pay cups. And then with the K-cups you get, the, the sachets that you add to your coffee that give it this wellness boost and help you feel alert without being jittery. And now it's evolving into a much bigger entity. So I might be doing more coffee than swinging instruction in the future.

Mac 1:19:33

Not surprising. Yeah.

Leo 1:19:34

That's, it's an awesome story. I can't wait to try it. I, I, I got, are you guys completely sold out or.

Dave 1:19:40

I don't even have it. I don't even have I have a cup. I don't even have it right there. I think I have one, but I have one bag of beans here. I have one bag of beans. You can't have it.

Leo 1:19:51

Well, wait, Hey, this is great. We always finish up with one question and there's kind of four segments to it. So it's a theoretical situation where you get to play any course in the world. And let's just start with that. Like what, what course would you want to play? anywhere in the world.

Dave 1:20:08

Royal Melbourne.

Leo 1:20:10

And then do you have an opportunity to get a lesson from anyone in the world that are alive before the round? Who would that be?

Dave 1:20:17

Wow, that's a great question. Dead or alive before they're around. What would it be? I would say my dad. put it in perspective. He's still alive.

Leo 1:20:33

That's great. And then you get to play with anybody you want after the lesson.

Dave 1:20:40

I would love to have played with Ben Hogan, I think would be just amazing just because of his mind. You know, if I was building a foursome, it would have to include him. I love playing with Phil Mickelson cause he's my friend. And, He's, it's amazing to watch you. You see things with fail that you never see

Leo 1:21:02

that's great. and then, yeah, you have a last choice here. Who do you want to drink with after the round?

Dave 1:21:11

let's see. I think with after the round, Does it have to be a golf? Is it a golf?

Leo 1:21:18

Yeah. Yeah. You know, it could be a Lincoln

Mac 1:21:21

right here. Any else gets pretty wild if we're going from that.

Dave 1:21:24

Yeah, exactly. Like, you know, I I've done that after, around when I have to cross that one. Yeah. This is going to sound really weird, but it would be Winston Churchill. Yeah. I don't

Mac 1:21:40

think you'd be able to keep up with him though, just because

Dave 1:21:44

no, cause I don't even know the man or if he drinks, but I watched the movie and watch, like, I remember my parents talking about world war two, cause they grew up in that time and what Winston Churchill did and how he was very disliked at first. But the mind of that, man, I, I w it just interests. I, I would love to

Mac 1:22:08

know. I heard he drank a fifth a day during, especially during, during the war. Yeah, he was, he was a fifth at bottle, a day guy.

Dave 1:22:15

So

Leo 1:22:18

that's, it sounds like a good day at Royal mail. That's awesome. Yeah. So

Dave 1:22:24

one of my greatest golf courses, I mean, listen, in the U S I've been fortunate to play gusta, which is amazing and pine Valley, and it's amazing. None of, a lot of people have been able to play Royal Melbourne. it's another one of those incredible golf courses. And then the golf course I grew up on was Lake country club in Papa, new Guinea. That's another one that if you've never been to LA, that's a great golf

Leo 1:22:46

course. You should go play at awesome.

Mac 1:22:48

That's yeah, but your dad loves that story about you started this coffee company. Now it's just gotta be such a trip for you,

Leo 1:22:53

by the way. What six years old then strong Kenyan coffee. What happened? No,

Dave 1:23:02

you run around chasing animals the rest of the day. No, it was just, you know, there's nothing like growing up in Africa, Africa, it touches your soul, the smell of Africa, the, the mornings, the sun is bigger there than anywhere the dusk. And especially if you're out in the middle of nowhere as I've been so many times, my family too. To Africa last year on a Safari. And, I, I got to, I got them to experience that, you know, like living, like I lived like going out with nothing on a land Rover to the middle of nowhere and, and, And it's amazing. Like if you, if you ever get to go to these places where these tribes and, and you see what they do. And I actually took my son and my daughter, we, we trekked for, for literally a day and a half to find a tribe of Pygmies in the middle of the Bush. And with a guide, they took us with them on a mole hunt. And that was one of the most incredible experiences because it was literally like going back to the stone age and these guys would shoot birds out of a tree with a bow and arrow. And you're going, how does someone shoot a bird with a bone? I mean, I couldn't even shoot on a telescope on a gun and they pick a bow and arrow. Lick the tip and we'll take a bird right out of a tree and then they cook it for breakfast and they're like offering it to you. And you're like, nah, you go ahead.

Leo 1:24:31

Oh, what, what great perspective to, to have your kids experienced that?

Mac 1:24:36

David, I'd love to introduce you to Blake too. We got to get around together. you know, all four of us that'd be, be awesome. He he's he's, he's one of those guys too. He'd be, he'll be on an expedition trip with you. And no time

Dave 1:24:48

we should do that, we should do that. I know he's in the health and wellness space and I'd love to talk to him about some ideas there as well. And, it would be, it would be great. I just to see where, where he's at. Cause I have a lot of respect for him and what he's doing.

Mac 1:24:58

We'll set it up, Dave. Well, thank you so much for taking the time with us. Really appreciate it. And, You've been an inspiration and can't thank you enough for everything you do and congratulations on all the success.

Leo 1:25:08

Yeah, really, really. And it was incredible to talk to you like this. Yeah. And, I hope everyone enjoys it as much as we did.

Dave 1:25:16

Thanks guys. Well, you know, we're always here for you. you guys have got a special place at the TPI facility and in our heart with what you're doing, I think it's amazing. And anything we can do to help you further your cause and we're there for you. So feel free. Don't be strangers, you know,

Leo 1:25:32

take care, man.

Dave 1:25:33

All right guys,

Mac 1:25:33

have a good week.